#1 Nov. 12, 2014 19:04:00

rogerhoward
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CLNR; "PV owners in the dark about maximising benefits"


This study on UK consumers with solar photovoltaics states that we are often too focused on the financial benefits of selling our electricity we generate back to the grid, when we would benefit more by greater on-site use of it.


Thoughts?










Economy 10 tariff provides 6.9p/kWh off-peak import between 12am-5am, 1pm-4pm and 8pm-10pm; http://www.pvoutput.org/aggregate.jsp?id=21047&sid=18934&v=2&t=m on approx. 63% off-peak usage, 22% solar usage, and 15% peak-rate usage.
1,900kWh annually is exported, mostly in summer, on approx. 3,200kWh generation. Approx. 4,500kWh/year is imported, mostly for (a) winter and springtime off-peak Storage Heaters, and (b) off-peak hot water Immersion heating (which is “dumb”, i.e. not linked to the solar PV).
PV array is split East-West. Income is from Phase II 21p/kWh Feed-in-Tariff plus smart metered 3.2p/kWh Export Tariff.

Edited rogerhoward (Nov. 12, 2014 19:04:00)

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#2 Nov. 12, 2014 19:08:00

rogerhoward
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CLNR; "PV owners in the dark about maximising benefits"


Using Smart meters, CLNR also undertook an interesting 2 year study of 12,000 customers, that included some with solar panels, heat pumps and electric vehicle charging points, to research current and emerging electricity load and generation patterns.







Economy 10 tariff provides 6.9p/kWh off-peak import between 12am-5am, 1pm-4pm and 8pm-10pm; http://www.pvoutput.org/aggregate.jsp?id=21047&sid=18934&v=2&t=m on approx. 63% off-peak usage, 22% solar usage, and 15% peak-rate usage.
1,900kWh annually is exported, mostly in summer, on approx. 3,200kWh generation. Approx. 4,500kWh/year is imported, mostly for (a) winter and springtime off-peak Storage Heaters, and (b) off-peak hot water Immersion heating (which is “dumb”, i.e. not linked to the solar PV).
PV array is split East-West. Income is from Phase II 21p/kWh Feed-in-Tariff plus smart metered 3.2p/kWh Export Tariff.

Edited rogerhoward (Nov. 12, 2014 19:08:00)

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#3 Nov. 15, 2014 10:19:00

Capetown
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CLNR; "PV owners in the dark about maximising benefits"


Does anyone on here think they are “In the dark”?  I don't think I am! I wonder what these companies hope to gain in this venture?    “In This Day And Age, It's Hard To Tell If Internet Quotes Are genuine”. Abraham Lincoln.







The gene pool has no lifeguard!

Edited Capetown (Nov. 15, 2014 10:19:00)

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#4 Nov. 17, 2014 14:20:00

morrisok
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CLNR; "PV owners in the dark about maximising benefits"


I am not sure I'd agree, we are often more concerned about using it onsite even if its a very inefficant method of usage rather than sell it back to the grid for a few pence.  Heating water from the spare electricity is not as efficiant as using gas or solar thermal but lots of us who can do it anyway. 


If we were all about saving the planet we would be letting it go back to the grid to reduce the reliance on other forms of generation!





Kevin 3.92KWp 12x 327W E20 SunPower panels Sunnyboy 4000 inverter, facing ~south, no shading issues. Location: Sussex, URN 131 http://pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=12216sid=10156







Kevin

URN 131, 3.92KWp 12x 327W E20 SunPower panels Sunnyboy 4000 inverter, facing ~south, no shading issues. Location: Sussex, http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?userid=12216

Edited morrisok (Nov. 17, 2014 14:20:00)

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#5 Nov. 17, 2014 15:07:00

aldous
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CLNR; "PV owners in the dark about maximising benefits"


Quote (morrisok): “If we were all about saving the planet we would be letting it go back to the grid to reduce the reliance on other forms of generation!”


Do you not think that solar PV for water heating is better than burning gas?








Edited aldous (Nov. 17, 2014 15:07:00)

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#6 Nov. 17, 2014 15:57:00

morrisok
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CLNR; "PV owners in the dark about maximising benefits"


Hi Aldous,


Its not that so much as its more efficient to use it as electricity either in your house or your neigbours.


According to the link below, the carbon footprint of making electricity is much higher than gas.


http://info.cat.org.uk/questions/pv/can-i-use-solar-pv-panels-heat-water





Kevin 3.92KWp 12x 327W E20 SunPower panels Sunnyboy 4000 inverter, facing ~south, no shading issues. Location: Sussex, URN 131 http://pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=12216sid=10156







Kevin

URN 131, 3.92KWp 12x 327W E20 SunPower panels Sunnyboy 4000 inverter, facing ~south, no shading issues. Location: Sussex, http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?userid=12216

Edited morrisok (Nov. 17, 2014 15:57:00)

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#7 Nov. 18, 2014 15:53:00

bhommels
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CLNR; "PV owners in the dark about maximising benefits"


I think I would agree on rational grounds. However the FiT scheme is designed such that it makes much more sense financially to use excess energy to heat water than to let it flow back into the grid. Maybe this is what the thread was about after all?


On the other hand, it could be argued the kWh price of gas is too cheap relative to electricity, or that the carbon footprint of consuming a kWh of electricity (~450 g/kWh) is too high. Both factors are beyond the PV owners control, however.





Edited bhommels (Nov. 18, 2014 15:53:00)

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#8 Nov. 19, 2014 12:59:00

aldous
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CLNR; "PV owners in the dark about maximising benefits"


An interesting link from CAT and a point which I am persuaded by.  However as takeup of PV increases then so will the impact on the electricity grid.  Self consumption becomes more important.  The peak demand time does not fully match that of PV generation especially in the evening, so early morning and later on in the day we will see peaks.  Greater export from PV increases the variation between peak and trough, which leads to greater ‘spinning reserve’ (higher carbon generation).


I agree that water heating is much more efficiently done by solar thermal, and think that maybe we've missed a trick in not giving an incentive for combining the two technologies when completing a PV installation.


It would be good to see smart fridges and freezers, capable of storing energy from PV.  Perhaps they could be activated when the voltage goes above a certain level. But I guess that's drifting off topic…





Edited aldous (Nov. 19, 2014 12:59:00)

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#9 Nov. 23, 2014 18:02:00

rogerhoward
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CLNR; "PV owners in the dark about maximising benefits"


My feelings on reading this report were;


1. Yes, post-August-2012 PV owners - the majority, who are on only modest FiT rates - ought to have been especially aware that, instead of maximising export, it is the proportion of electricity consumption used from solar generation (along with retail electricity price inflation) that has a progressively significant effect on Return on Investment as the years go by.
For example on a £6k installation generating 2500kWh/year with a FiT inflation rate of 2%/year and a retail electricity price inflation rate of 7%/year, the RoI difference would be
- 40% of generation used on-site; initial 9.4% RoI rising to 15.2% by year 20 (and 6.8% thereafter)
- 25% of generation used on-site; initial 8.6% RoI rising to 12.7% by year 20 (and 4.3% thereafter).


This seems to be a subject so hugely neglected, almost to the point of avoidance, that I found it welcome to belatedly notice something like this on the subject.


2. Yes my own conversations with some local PV owners, albeit longer established ones, suggest that typical PV owners are indeed ‘in the dark’ about these things. In fact at our Sheffield Solar workshop there was some comment about the lack of interest that PV owners typically take in their systems generally, and how many PV owners are indeed properly aware of the need for a means of ‘export’ recording to accurately assess investment ‘payback’?


3. But boosting the ‘solar usage’ proportion of our consumption in my experience seems a lot easier said than done! ("We have seen that by equipping PV owners with smart meters and in home energy monitors they were able to better understand and manage their own energy use and generation.“) I do have some basic realtime monitoring from a pair of circuit-clamp monitors that I've been given (one monitors the generation kW, the other consumption kW), and I still find it difficult to use up my solar generation on-site.


I daresay that study participants did at least learn of the need to record their export (and hence also derive their ‘solar usage’ by comparison with their generation), but I didn't read anything in these reports about study participants being advised or helped to boost their on-site solar consumption.


Huge expectations for future UK energy efficiencies seem to be expected from smart meters, realtime monitoring, plus solar PV, etc, but where is the more practical advice for us to achieve it? Or even the realtime monitoring for us to attempt it?







Economy 10 tariff provides 6.9p/kWh off-peak import between 12am-5am, 1pm-4pm and 8pm-10pm; http://www.pvoutput.org/aggregate.jsp?id=21047&sid=18934&v=2&t=m on approx. 63% off-peak usage, 22% solar usage, and 15% peak-rate usage.
1,900kWh annually is exported, mostly in summer, on approx. 3,200kWh generation. Approx. 4,500kWh/year is imported, mostly for (a) winter and springtime off-peak Storage Heaters, and (b) off-peak hot water Immersion heating (which is “dumb”, i.e. not linked to the solar PV).
PV array is split East-West. Income is from Phase II 21p/kWh Feed-in-Tariff plus smart metered 3.2p/kWh Export Tariff.

Edited rogerhoward (Nov. 23, 2014 18:02:00)

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#10 Dec. 4, 2015 06:12:34

rogerhoward
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CLNR; "PV owners in the dark about maximising benefits"

The apparently successful CLNR trial was also mentioned in part 4.1 of the attached.



Economy 10 tariff provides 6.9p/kWh off-peak import between 12am-5am, 1pm-4pm and 8pm-10pm; http://www.pvoutput.org/aggregate.jsp?id=21047&sid=18934&v=2&t=m on approx. 63% off-peak usage, 22% solar usage, and 15% peak-rate usage.
1,900kWh annually is exported, mostly in summer, on approx. 3,200kWh generation. Approx. 4,500kWh/year is imported, mostly for (a) winter and springtime off-peak Storage Heaters, and (b) off-peak hot water Immersion heating (which is “dumb”, i.e. not linked to the solar PV).
PV array is split East-West. Income is from Phase II 21p/kWh Feed-in-Tariff plus smart metered 3.2p/kWh Export Tariff.

Attachments:
attachment BSRIA DC Power - Potential Applications.pdf (706.0 KB)

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