#1 April 15, 2014 19:30:00

JMH
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Electric cars


Is anyone using a ‘plug-in’ electric car as a means of ‘storing’ electricity generated during the day?  





Edited JMH (April 15, 2014 19:30:00)

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#2 April 16, 2014 11:47:00

jamesk
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Electric cars


Great question,





I was thinking how brilliant this would be, but I wasn't sure there would be enough power to even trickle charge for a large part of the time…





Edited jamesk (April 16, 2014 11:47:00)

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#3 April 17, 2014 11:23:00

JMH
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Electric cars


Or perhaps one or more electric bikes…


I have not looked too deeply at the calculations for cars.  Most seem to be ‘back-of-an-envelope’ estimates.  However, it appears to be possible and to have been tried in the US (see, for example, LA Times, 08/05/2010, S.Carpenter).  


Any additional startegy to store ‘home-made’ electricity for when it might be needed would be valauble.  Just a thought.  





Edited JMH (April 17, 2014 11:23:00)

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#4 April 18, 2014 05:59:00

Capetown
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Electric cars


Buying a new Nissan Leaf (say) for 16k then paying £80/month to hire the battery is quite an expensive way to store electricity!







The gene pool has no lifeguard!

Edited Capetown (April 18, 2014 05:59:00)

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#5 April 18, 2014 16:20:00

rogerhoward
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Electric cars


Maybe not, Capetown, for those of us with a charging point - see previous thread on free home vehicle recharging points offer (N.B. You don't have to take the battery hire option with a Leaf, nor do you have to buy a new one. They've been out for 3 years now.)


Hmm, how do you reverse the current flow back from the battery then?







Economy 10 tariff provides 6.9p/kWh off-peak import between 12am-5am, 1pm-4pm and 8pm-10pm; http://www.pvoutput.org/aggregate.jsp?id=21047&sid=18934&v=2&t=m on approx. 63% off-peak usage, 22% solar usage, and 15% peak-rate usage.
1,900kWh annually is exported, mostly in summer, on approx. 3,200kWh generation. Approx. 4,500kWh/year is imported, mostly for (a) winter and springtime off-peak Storage Heaters, and (b) off-peak hot water Immersion heating (which is “dumb”, i.e. not linked to the solar PV).
PV array is split East-West. Income is from Phase II 21p/kWh Feed-in-Tariff plus smart metered 3.2p/kWh Export Tariff.

Edited rogerhoward (April 18, 2014 16:20:00)

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#6 April 19, 2014 11:12:00

Capetown
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rogerhoward, you must have missed the at the end of the sentence! I did look into getting a leaf, a full charge would take 24kWhs and the only “year round” option would be to use economy 7 for overnight charging. If you don't take the battery hire option you'll need to buy batteries for it instead. Agreed second hand prices are quite a bit cheaper, but the older leaf have battery issues, the new models have an improved spec and have a warrantee on battery life which is an improvement I guess. It's a great idea to have an electric car but until they reduce the price and get a better range “I'm out!”







The gene pool has no lifeguard!

Edited Capetown (April 19, 2014 11:12:00)

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#7 April 21, 2014 14:08:00

JMH
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Electric cars


I suppose that one of the problems with all these ‘storage’ strategies is that everyone's situation is different.  For example, I was considering buying an electric car/bikes anyway.  


It is going to be interesting to see how this develops.  





Edited JMH (April 21, 2014 14:08:00)

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#8 April 23, 2014 15:05:00

Capetown
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http://www.nissan.co.uk/GB/en/vehicle/electric-vehicles/leaf/prices-and-equipment/prices-and-specifications.html  If you play with the mileage and hire duration of the battery rental you can get a good idea of the cost of the whole package for 5 years say.







The gene pool has no lifeguard!

Edited Capetown (April 23, 2014 15:05:00)

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#9 April 29, 2014 14:42:00

rogerhoward
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Electric cars


Hi JMH. As a more modest starting point, do you have any family members with one of those sub-30mph teenager electric scooters, that you could experiment with?! It unfortunately seems that you nowadays need a Provisional moped licence and a CBT certificate to ride the faster ‘adult’ Electric Scooters.


There's also beach-buggies for Snazzy showoff types - the possibilities seem endless. I suspect that in my case I might be one of those who ends up using a seniors mobility scooter though!










Economy 10 tariff provides 6.9p/kWh off-peak import between 12am-5am, 1pm-4pm and 8pm-10pm; http://www.pvoutput.org/aggregate.jsp?id=21047&sid=18934&v=2&t=m on approx. 63% off-peak usage, 22% solar usage, and 15% peak-rate usage.
1,900kWh annually is exported, mostly in summer, on approx. 3,200kWh generation. Approx. 4,500kWh/year is imported, mostly for (a) winter and springtime off-peak Storage Heaters, and (b) off-peak hot water Immersion heating (which is “dumb”, i.e. not linked to the solar PV).
PV array is split East-West. Income is from Phase II 21p/kWh Feed-in-Tariff plus smart metered 3.2p/kWh Export Tariff.

Edited rogerhoward (April 29, 2014 14:42:00)

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#10 April 29, 2014 19:08:00

SunshineCoaster
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Electric cars


As with PV systems, it is a matter of seperating unsound sales-hype from plain economics, questioning your assumptions, and choosing the right time to ‘take the plunge’. In both cases viability can depend on a very wide range of assumptions. My pre-PV calculations always differed from those of sales people who did not allow for possible down-time, out of warranty inverter replacements, sub-50% usage of generation etc. and then compare a ‘rate of return’ to savings accounts – whereas a ‘negative mortgage’ is a more appropriate model (to return capital + interest on that capital + other costs). Viability for an electric vehicle needs no less care in ‘doing the sums’.


e.g. Our local dealers repeatedly advertise the Leaf as “RUNNING COSTS FROM 2P A MILE**” where the small print stars explain the assumed tariff – as if that choice is a significant factor – it isn't! This seems misleading to me, because their quote is really an ‘energy consumption cost’. ‘Running costs’ include all the other types of expenses most cars incur with servicing, replacing wear and tear items, insurance etc. that can not be ignored. In August 2011, a Telegraph article
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/columnists/mike-rutherford/8696300/Mr-Money-Pence-per-mile-is-what-matters-most-for-motorists.html
found all but one of their surveyed five-seat family hatchbacks costed at under 50p/mile, but the Leaf at 52p/mile was the highest!


Last time I checked my spreadsheet, for 10 year total cost of ownership, the Leaf came out at 40-45p/mile for me, a similar cost to replacing my current Fabia with a new Greenline model, but it's 39p/mile if I keep my present older one! (higher fuel/maintenance being offset by lower capital outlay) Some assumptions are just guesses of course, such as half the charging energy being solar. The significantly variable item to influence future calculation though is the battery - leased or bought costs may be similar if ownership costs are guided from leasing costs. Nissan's averaged long term costs per pack for manufacture/capital tie/disposal + unknown margins might approximately equate to end-user battery-pack replacement pricing (though I feel I have to include at least one within that decade of ownership) so you can use present list-price-differences between bought and leased-battery models as a guide. Compared to petrol/diesel, the battery may be likened to the fuel tank – being the main energy container, and you wouldn't expect that to be an additional lease or buy option with a petrol/diesel car would you? You'd expect the tank to be included in the price, and for it to last the life of the car.

With a few used Leafs around now (perhaps due to impatient owners being dissappointed at the slow takeup of charge-points?) at near half new prices, that calculation can come down to around 25p/mile, but assumptions (/luck!) on battery replacement introduces even wider variances with older models (due to issues, as pointed out by Capetown) . A plug-in hybrid/compromise dispells range anxiety, but might not fully utilise available solar as their electric-only-mode ranges tend to be very short. So I'm not convinced yet, though I suspect changes in specs/prices/technology etc. will win me over sometime.  Meanwhile let's hear from any electric car owners on how their viability/expectations turned out.





Edited SunshineCoaster (April 29, 2014 19:08:00)

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